When renowned physician-scientist Francis Collins was about to have his first conversation with Christian conservative Wilk Wilkinson in early 2022, he admits that he had concerns. "I thought oh boy, this is going to be a tough one". 

Dr. Collins had recently stepped down as Director of NIH— The National Institutes of Health. He served under Presidents Obama, Trump, and Biden, and played a leading role in the federal response to the COVID pandemic. Podcaster Wilk Wilkinson, who lives in rural Minnesota, was intensely critical of how the government handled COVID.

Today both Francis and Wilk are friends. They lead the Braver Angels' Truth and Trust Project. The goal is to build trust between ordinary Americans and the public health community in the wake of the pandemic. In each Truth and Trust gathering equal numbers of people from each side of the debate about what happened with public health listen carefully and express their views. 

In this episode of "How Do We Fix It?", Wilk and Francis discuss their unlikely partnership, what they've learned from those they disagree with, and how they're working together across divides.

"We're going to have another pandemic," says Francis. "If we do not learn the lessons of what went right and what went wrong with this one then we're going to be in a terrible spot."

Both men still have different opinions on the role of government mandates in health emergencies. "When I look at anything that involves the government it's through the lens of liberty," says Wilk. "If the one entity out there that has a monopoly on force is going to restrict the liberty of the individual they better be 100% sure that what they're doing is really the only option."

"I learned a lot by listening, and Wilk was a very good person to listen to, about how the pandemic was different for somebody who was in a very different place than I was", says Francis. "I also learned from Wilk and others in the Truth and Trust sessions about how sometimes the pronouncements from people like me in public health communication came across as very elitist... as opposed to really explaining the circumstance about how imperfect the data was and how uncertain we often were that we were recommending was going to turn out to be right."

Francis's forthcoming book, to be published in mid-September, is "The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith and Trust". Wilk's podcast is "Derate The Hate."