The recent controversy about the seizure of classified government documents at Mar-a-Lago is only the latest example of outrage over former President Trump's behavior, and the responses to it. But the forces shaking American democracy didn't begin with Trump's arrival on the political scene.

We learn why populism, polarization and other threats to public institutions will likely last for the foreseeable future. Our guest, Darrell West, vice president of Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution in Washington D.C., is the author of "Power Politics: Trump and the Assault on American Democracy." He's the author of 19 books on American politics and has won several prestigious awards for his writing.

In this episode we discuss why the grievances exploited by Trump that existed well before he became president, the threat of extreme authoritarianism, the role played by technological and social media, and Darrell West's constructive advice for protecting people, organizations and the country from challenges to democracy.

Our lively conversation also looks at the systemic causes of current threats to American democracy, procedural justice, and a reason-based society. Jim and Richard also debate Darrell West's analysis of the challenges that we all face.

Recommendation: Jim is reading "The Facemaker: A Visionary Surgeon's Battle to Mend the Disfigured Soldiers of World War 1" by Lindsey Fitzharris.