Shock, surprises and suffering are the most immediate results of all wars. Russia's brutal, yet deeply flawed invasion of Ukraine has profound implications for the West, global democracy and the future of Europe and Russia. We hear the perspectives of two prominent thinkers, Jane Lytvynenko and Robert Kagen. Richard and Jim also share their analysis of the unexpected early outcomes of the war.

This episode has extracts from an interview with Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing columnist for The Washington Post. He spoke with podcast producer and host Jenna Spinelle of "Democracy Works". We also share part of an interview from the current episode of "Democracy in Danger" with journalist Jane Lytvynenko, who covers technology, disinformation, and now, Ukraine. She was born in Kyiv. Jane is also a senior research fellow at Harvard University's Technology and Social Change Project at the Shorenstein Center.

This podcast is produced with the generous help of the Democracy Group podcast network and the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State University.

"I actually believe in the long run we will come out of this," says Robert Kagen. "Unfortunately, the long run may be longer than we want and we may be in this for 20 years."

"Had the West stood up against the torture of protesters in Belarus, Russia would not have been able to put tanks there today," says Jane Lytvynenko. She argues for a more robust response by the West to attacks against democracy in other nations.

Recommendation: Jim is reading “Mercury Rising. John Glenn, John Kennedy and the New Battleground of the Cold War" by Jeff Shesol.