The huge difference between slogans and solutions is a key theme of this episode. While demands to “de-fund the police” or replace entire police departments with something new might sound good in theory, these ambitious experiments in public safety may backfire.

Our guest is Minneapolis civil rights lawyer and activist Nekima Levy Armstrong. Her recent New York Times op-ed— “Black Voters Want Better Policing, Not Posturing by Progressives”— was written after the defeat of a November ballot initiative that would abolish the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a department of public safety. She expressed frustration over the lack of a detailed, well-researched plan.

While white progressives mostly voiced support for the proposal, majority-black neighborhoods rejected it. We find out why.