Climate change is real, but it's not the end of the world, says our guest, science writer, Michael Shellenberger.

He argues in the controversial new book, "Apocalypse Never", that activists use alarmism to describe threats posed by rising levels of carbon in the atmosphere, and are harming the cause of environmentalism. His proposed solutions include support for carbon-free nuclear power, agricultural industrialization, urbanization, and technological innovation.

This episode provoked a lively debate. Richard disagrees with the tone and some of the arguments made here. Jim is more supportive. But both of our hosts agree that discussing tough issues with plenty of room for conflicting opinions is an important part of what we do.

A self-described eco-modernist, Michael Shellenberger is an author, environmental policy writer, co-founder of Breakthrough Institute, and founder of Environmental Progress.

Recommendation: Richard is reading "In This Together" by Bill Shireman and Tramell Crow, and is following the work of EarthX, a series of conferences that bring together environmental activists, corporate leaders and researchers interested in a more sustainable future.